Curse

LoyalSoldier · Mar 20, 2007, 01:00 AM // 01:00

It was suggested that this be posted here in place of the bug report so here it is.

[skill]Pestilence[/skill]

The user only has to kill himself with self inflicted poisons and bleeds in order to pass it on to NPCs. You literally have Necro/Rangers or Ranger/Necros killing key NPCs in such maps as Aspenwood. A screen shot was posted with in another thread.

A note for all this means kurzicks can kill kurzicks and luxons can kill luxons.

While I do admit it was fun killing Togo, this should not be.

http://xs413.xs.to/xs413/07121/gw426.jpg

EDIT: Please read the Forum Rules on correct image sizing. -Swampgirl

Faer · Mar 20, 2007, 01:16 AM // 01:16

The spirit is doing exactly what it is supposed to do, so no "fixing" needs to be done. If people are using it in Aspenwood, that's their prerogative. Unless you are complaining because people are using it to grief, such as people joining the Kurzick side simply to team-kill the gate/gatekeeper NPC units... Then again, that is also their right to do, even though it's a bit underhanded.

There's not really anything to /notsign here, because there isn't anything to fix...

LoyalSoldier · Mar 20, 2007, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faer

The spirit is doing exactly what it is supposed to do, so no "fixing" needs to be done. If people are using it in Aspenwood, that's their prerogative. Unless you are complaining because people are using it to grief, such as people joining the Kurzick side simply to team-kill the gate/gatekeeper NPC units... Then again, that is also their right to do, even though it's a bit underhanded.

There's not really anything to /notsign here, because there isn't anything to fix...

Yes Griefing is becoming so bad it isn't worth playing Aspenwood. You have bombers running down and killing the gatekeepers and unless you are a monk you can't do anything about it.

I do not agree that it is in their right to do so because they are basically destroying the fun for the others who try to play.

Cataclysm · Mar 20, 2007, 01:45 AM // 01:45

I dont get it, don't Polteski and that other NPC monk heal Gunth>

LoyalSoldier · Mar 20, 2007, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cataclysm

I dont get it, don't Polteski and that other NPC monk heal Gunth>

They do, but they are stupid enough to die from poison. They can only heal themselves with protective spirit. Also if you add other spirits to amplify the damage it is quite easy to out degen the gatekeepers. If you kill one gatekeeper it is easy to kill gunther.

tenshi_strife · Mar 20, 2007, 03:42 AM // 03:42

i would say you cant alter a skill because of griefing but heh well my guild got EoE nerf by accident while trying to get a bug in ab fixed..... we sucided with eoe up to kill all luxons allies *we are kurzick so it was kinda cool* but we wanted it changed to where you are unkillable before timer starts but instead anet nerfed eoe so i would say this Wont happen but i dont think it should

Faer · Mar 20, 2007, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoyalSoldier

I do not agree that it is in their right to do so because they are basically destroying the fun for the others who try to play.

It is every player's right to play this game however they so choose, as long as they do not break the rules of the game or the guidelines the company has set over it's use. Yes, griefing makes the game less fun for a lot of people, but there is nothing in the rules that says you can not kill your own NPC units off with Ranger spirits. Therefore, they are fully within their rights to do so, just as players are fully within their rights to sell items for exuberant prices or get runs through half a campaign; high prices and runs ruin fun aspects of the game for some people, but it's not against any rules, so they just have to deal with it.

That being said, if you don't have any use for your secondary, or your build can work fine without it's elite (both of which are true in Aspenwood/Jade Quarry/Alliance Battles, as much as most people will refuse to admit it, as those "arenas" are just PvE with a twist and therefore almost anything can win there), bring one of these skills along to destroy Pestilence (I believe most of them work on Ranger spirits, though if not, you could always just roll a Monk...). Until ArenaNet decides to do anything about this particular use of the spirit, you really don't have any other options (except to grit your teeth and bear it, or not play at all).

arcanemacabre · Mar 20, 2007, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faer

It is every player's right to play this game however they so choose, as long as they do not break the rules of the game or the guidelines the company has set over it's use. Yes, griefing makes the game less fun for a lot of people, but there is nothing in the rules that says you can not kill your own NPC units off with Ranger spirits. Therefore, they are fully within their rights to do so, just as players are fully within their rights to sell items for exuberant prices or get runs through half a campaign; high prices and runs ruin fun aspects of the game for some people, but it's not against any rules, so they just have to deal with it.

I do not agree with this at all. You're basically saying that everything in the game is fine as it is simply because it all works as designed? Am I reading that right? If players abuse a skill, feature, or mechanic, it's just okay because that skill, feature, or mechanic is working as intended?

This is clearly a form of abuse, despite there being a handful of skills that can stop it from happening. People should not have to bring skills to stop sabotage. Simple solution, give the gatekeepers and Gunther those sabotage-stopping skills. The mechanic remains unchanged, but the abuse is stopped.

LoyalSoldier · Mar 20, 2007, 05:45 AM // 05:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Simple solution, give the gatekeepers and Gunther those sabotage-stopping skills. The mechanic remains unchanged, but the abuse is stopped.

To be honest I think that is one of the better solutions. Even if it is as much as a condition removal it helps prevent abuse. Right now the Gate keepers can stop this from happening to Gunther, but not themselves because their heal can only heal other targets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faer

That being said, if you don't have any use for your secondary, or your build can work fine without it's elite (both of which are true in Aspenwood/Jade Quarry/Alliance Battles, as much as most people will refuse to admit it, as those "arenas" are just PvE with a twist and therefore almost anything can win there), bring one of these skills along to destroy Pestilence (I believe most of them work on Ranger spirits, though if not, you could always just roll a Monk...). Until ArenaNet decides to do anything about this particular use of the spirit, you really don't have any other options (except to grit your teeth and bear it, or not play at all).

I am sorry, but that is a stupid solution. Because that means I have give up my secondary to camp gunther which basically means I can't play the game and the greifer still wins. Cyanide is a cure for cancer, but no one likes the side effects. Aspenwood is a huge map and the spawn is right in front of gunther. I can't keep running across the map.

Winterclaw · Mar 20, 2007, 06:42 AM // 06:42

I'm going to have to agree with faer. If pestilance is too much of a problem, either kill it, bring a better condition removal, kill people before they get to the NPC, or kill people with skills like crystal wave.

PS. I like the avatar LoyalSoldier, it reminds me of one of my old dogs.

Crushing Power · Mar 20, 2007, 01:00 PM // 13:00

I think the problem here is that people are using it to kill friendly NPCs which you shouldn't be able to harm, and that is a fairly serious bug as it can spoil missions for others.
I don't think you should sit back and argue that its acceptable that its OK to abuse existing glitches or loopholes in the game to do such a thing.
/signed

freekedoutfish · Mar 20, 2007, 01:40 PM // 13:40

I saw this and I knew exactly what the OP was thinking....

"The Luxons are using a decent build to win Aspenwood, and Im unable to think of an effective counter measure. Instead of thinking of a better build, or improving the Kuzacks tactics, I want that entire skill to be nerfed and made ineffective."

..seems like a typical PvP attitude to me.

I fail to see the issue here.

Am I wrong in thinking that the idea is to kill the opposing NPCs in Aspenwood? Correct me if im wrong, because otherwise i've been playing Aspenwood incorrectly for a long time.

How about, instead of complaining, the Kuzacks or luxons just do a better job of protecting their NPCs and keep the necros away from them.

I appreciate that we probably have players killing friendly NPCs using this method, but thats just something we need to deal with. That isnt the only way to cheat in Aspenwood. You have Luxons infiltrating the Kuzack side and opening the gates. The Kuzacks can lead their gaurdians inside the end gate so they cant be killed. If you place elementals and monks one of the inside of the end gate, you have no chance of getting in with constant healing and AoE.

Aspenwood is full of tricks and cheats. But its meant to simulate a war. Ofcourse your going to get people infiltrating the enemy side and cheating. You also get Kuzacks going to the Luxon side and leaching.

Both sides cheat and you just have to outsmart them.

LoyalSoldier · Mar 20, 2007, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

I saw this and I knew exactly what the OP was thinking....

"The Luxons are using a decent build to win Aspenwood, and Im unable to think of an effective counter measure. Instead of thinking of a better build, or improving the Kuzacks tactics, I want that entire skill to be nerfed and made ineffective."

I guess not because this isn't about the luxons finding a good tactic, this is about a freaking exploit. I should be fighting the luxons and not my freaking team.

When the luxons started bringing WotP to take care of bonding what did I do? I brought corpse removal.

When the luxons used their turtles what did I do? I brought a ranger to stop them.

Adapting is not the issue here, but it is that in order to adapt I can no longer play the map.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

I fail to see the issue here.

Am I wrong in thinking that the idea is to kill the opposing NPCs in Aspenwood? Correct me if im wrong, because otherwise i've been playing Aspenwood incorrectly for a long time.

How about, instead of complaining, the Kuzacks or luxons just do a better job of protecting their NPCs and keep the necros away from them.

I appreciate that we probably have players killing friendly NPCs using this method, but thats just something we need to deal with. That isnt the only way to cheat in Aspenwood. You have Luxons infiltrating the Kuzack side and opening the gates. The Kuzacks can lead their gaurdians inside the end gate so they cant be killed. If you place elementals and monks one of the inside of the end gate, you have no chance of getting in with constant healing and AoE.

All problems that need to be fixed, but it doesn't make this right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Aspenwood is full of tricks and cheats. But its meant to simulate a war. Ofcourse your going to get people infiltrating the enemy side and cheating. You also get Kuzacks going to the Luxon side and leaching.

Both sides cheat and you just have to outsmart them.

I think you miss the point. A kurzick is killing kurzick NPCs. You can't defend against this without sitting around to heal Gunther for the whole round.

The counter measure is easy, but not practical because I take myself out of the game to fight it.

LoyalSoldier · Mar 20, 2007, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

I'm going to have to agree with faer. If pestilance is too much of a problem, either kill it, bring a better condition removal, kill people before they get to the NPC, or kill people with skills like crystal wave.

Really love to know how you kill your own team members with crystal wave.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

PS. I like the avatar LoyalSoldier, it reminds me of one of my old dogs.

RePS. Thanks.

gameshoes3003 · Mar 21, 2007, 12:34 AM // 00:34

I wonder if you can kill Luxon/Kurzick base defenders with that.....

LoyalSoldier · Mar 21, 2007, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by gameshoes3003

I wonder if you can kill Luxon/Kurzick base defenders with that.....

Yep it is perfectly possible. The ones without a self heal are easier, but even the ones with the heals can be killed. You can take out the Commanders, gate guards, random NPCs, and yes the gatekeepers. No NPC is safe, just some are safer.

freekedoutfish · Mar 21, 2007, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoyalSoldier

I
I think you miss the point. A kurzick is killing kurzick NPCs. You can't defend against this without sitting around to heal Gunther for the whole round. [/B]

So why do we need to completely remove its effects on all NPCs?

Just stop it from working on friendly NPCs. Problem solved!! Just stop friendly team members from doing any damage at all to friendly NPCs.

dgb · Mar 21, 2007, 09:39 AM // 09:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

So why do we need to completely remove its effects on all NPCs?

Just stop it from working on friendly NPCs. Problem solved!! Just stop friendly team members from doing any damage at all to friendly NPCs.

Because that completely misses the point of spirits. They are meant to be able to backfire by being a world-effect. In their own effect, they are meant to apply it to both sides evenly. If you want to stop them killing NPCs, it has to be all NPCs, not just your own.

freekedoutfish · Mar 21, 2007, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

Because that completely misses the point of spirits. They are meant to be able to backfire by being a world-effect. In their own effect, they are meant to apply it to both sides evenly. If you want to stop them killing NPCs, it has to be all NPCs, not just your own.

So you recognise that the spell/skill is doing exactly what its meant to do?

I appreciate your point, in that its an exploit and its making Aspenwood and similar matches unfair. But if they removed this exploit, there are countless others to use, or someone will find a new one.

I agree that isnt a good arguement, and we should remove all and any exploits we find. But what if changing this skill had a nock-on-effect.

If we nerfed that effect on NPCs simply for Aspenwood, whats to say it wont have a negative effect on another aspect of the game?

There might be a point in the game when you want it to effect and kill an NPC using that skill. It could be extremely beneficial in another part of the game.

It might effect some aspect of PvP or PvE that im not aware of. I honestly think a well organised team of monks, AoE, and the rest could prevent this without the need to drasticly effect an entire skill.

But I could be wrong.

Faer · Mar 22, 2007, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

You're basically saying...

No, I'm saying it is everyone's right to play this game as they choose, as long as they do not violate the rules of the game. They paid for the game, and as long as they don't break the rules, they have the right to play it, even if some other people aren't happy with the way they use that right. How they use that right to play is an entirely different story. I thought I was very clear about that, but I guess I wasn't clear enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoyalSoldier

I am sorry, but that is a stupid solution. Because that means I have give up my secondary to camp gunther which basically means I can't play the game and the greifer still wins. Cyanide is a cure for cancer, but no one likes the side effects. Aspenwood is a huge map and the spawn is right in front of gunther. I can't keep running across the map.

So, what, are these people Echo Chaining the Spirit or something? Or are they group joining so that your entire team (other than yourself) are spamming Pestilence to kill Gunther? Last I checked, Pestilence can only be set naturally once every 63 seconds or so (counting cast time and recharge). A full minute (or more, as I don't think anyone will sit there trying to kill the NPC's when their efforts are thwarted every time) is long enough for you to kill the first spirit, run a few pieces of Amber, and get back in time to kill the next spirit. You wouldn't have to camp anything. Besides, if you have a problem with babysitting NPC's/players who don't know how to survive on their own, how do you think Monks feel, given the fact that babysitting idiots is their "job" in this game?

The whole point of Aspenwood is to defend the fort by running across the map. If you don't like running across the map, then you aren't playing the mission as it was designed to be played. But, after all, it is your right to do so. Just like it is the Luxon player's right to cast Pestilence and inflict conditions upon their character. You don't like that Luxon killing Gunther, your teammates don't like you not running Amber. Same basic concept.

Sorry if my solution isn't acceptable to you. However, if you'll please notice, my "solution" will help you win Aspenwood a lot more often than waiting for ArenaNet to see a post buried in a busy section of a fan-forum so that they can start to change a skill will. There are two types of people who play this game: people who take action, and people who wait for other people to take action. You can be a go-getter and kill spirits / heal Gunther, or you can sit around waiting for something that may never come. It's your decision, and your right, to choose either way.